Is 60 too old to seek a woman in her 30s?
Dear Anthony,
I am in my 50s and was corresponding with a man in his 60s. He eventually revealed that he was hoping to find someone in her 30s so he that he could raise a family. I was quite surprised that he thought such an age difference was realistic — I know I don’t. What are your thoughts?
Yes, I know this is confusing for women to experience, and I believe you have the right position. A man in his 60's has little to no chance of getting a woman in her 30's to marry him. Stats prove this, and I have had enough women tell me it is "creepy" to hear from a man 15+ years older to know that this man is wasting his time. And to maintain a hope of naturally fathering children at that age is probably ridiculous, and certainly foolish. He's just not thinking of the big picture, and lacks consideration for anyone but himself. It also could be a sign of arrogance to think that God continues to ask him to put off considering a good woman like yourself of his age group because God wants him to father children.
I hate to say this, but I am praying that he is just giving you "a line" to make it easier on you instead of just coming out and saying "I'm not interested," because the alternative is just not an alternative in my mind (which is that he really believes he will find a much younger woman to marry him and give him children). And I am talking about "Catholic" women here. Perhaps there are "gold digger"-type Catholic women out there who will welcome such a union for the purpose of inheriting a bundle of money once he is dead (10 to 20 years at the most might seem like a good investment to some 32-year-old women), but gold diggers don't tend to want to be "mothers" of the children of men that much older. And this is all assuming he is a rich man, which I am doubting.
Passing up a women of his age in hopes of a younger woman of child-bearing years is delusional. How much time does he really think he has left to live in this world, let alone to wait for this woman to come along? His delusion will very likely take him to the end of his life having never enjoyed the companionship and love and devotion of a good woman like yourself who, though you cannot give him natural children, could give him happiness like he has never experienced, and give HIM the opportunity to live the vocation God called him to, which is to serve. I am always amazed that there are some people out there who look happiness straight in the eye and pass on it.
Sad to say, what you are experiencing is a very common problem with Catholic men today. And no Catholic man has come forward to challenge me on this position. The bottom line: many single Catholic men today are making very bad decisions about whom they are looking for, and they are making no decisions at all, when they should be. They seek fantasy and idealism, but have no sense of the practical nature of their call to marriage. Thus, they keep getting older and remain unmarried because the fantasy and idealistic desire continues to fool them into thinking it is just around the corner. And their lack of decision to marry is, in fact, a decision. The decision is "I will not serve anyone", "I would rather be to myself".
In the meantime, the women ready to give a man love and devotion (and children) are getting older, too, and they are not getting asked out or a proposal of marriage. And babies are not being conceived and born that should be. It crushes my heart to encounter so many women who are approaching an age (or have reached it) where they can no longer conceive children, when they were very ready to marry and have a family, but live in a time when men just don't make decisions or commitments in marriage. It's extremely sad.
I came to Ave Maria Singles today to read and think about joining. The first thing I read was this blog that I am responding to. I feel the need to respond. I am a 64 year old man who has never been married and, for the first time in my life, I have the stability and lack of overbearing responsibilities to begin to consider marriage. I converted to Catholicism in the '70's, and I have been faithful to even the most difficult teaching (I will not elaborate here) So I feel that I am worthy of finding the mate I have always wanted. I am physically fit and, now that I have covered my chin with a beard, not to bad looking. If I were to join Ave Maria, I would be looking for an intelligent, nice looking woman with my same interests who could bear children. I can't say for sure that I am fertile but I have heard that men my age fathering children is not so uncommon. You mention that the purpose of our lives is to serve and I don't argue with that. Since my conversion, I have spent my life serving, taking care of my parents and (literally) working for the Church. Now that my parents have died, I find myself in a stable situation but without any family. I have always enjoyed children. Why should I deny myself the opportunity to spend the next twenty or so years building a family. I understand the health issues but I am not "delusional" as you suggest.
I have to concur with Anthony on the "women in their 30's get creeped out by men in their 60's pursuing them." I'm not yet 40 and the whole thought sends shivers down my spine. Now, that doesn't mean that a man in his 60's couldn't possibly find a much younger woman to marry, but don't hold out for it. For us, it's very creepy, not to mention the thinking systems of the different generations are completely different. We in our 30's are looking for someone to grow old with. Marrying a much older man doesn't hold much promise for that.
Thank you, Anthony, for your constancy in the message of good decision making when it comes to age differences and the foolishness of fantasy. It affects women as well as men. We'd all like Mr. Darcy on a white horse, but he's more than likely not out there.
Secondly, a woman who is 44 or 45 years old will likely NOT be able to bear a child - out of 10 married friends, only 2 had successful pregnancies in their early 40's - and this after having borne 5 and 8 children! Generally speaking a woman's fertility begins declining around age 35, although this varies from woman to woman. I do know that it took me 6 months to conceive when I was 38, and I had no problems with my previous 3 children.
There is also a third consideration - your potential age as a father. If hypothetically you were to marry by age 65 and father a child by age 66, your child would grow up having a parent who is quite elderly (assuming you live for 20 years or more following the child's birth). There has been considerable debate recently over women in their late 50's and even late 60's (I think the oldest was a woman of 67) having babies! Because we can make something come about (by hormones, IVF etc) does not mean that we ought to do it. Although we are talking about fathering a child naturally, you must consider the effect on the child. Fathering a child at 64 also means that there is a not unsubstantial risk of genetic problems, another factor to be considered.
Bill you made the choice NOT to marry when you were younger for specific reasons. That was your choice. But choices have consequences and the result of your choice is that your chance to father a child of your own has likely passed you by. You need to move on with your life and focus on finding a woman who will be a good companion and whom you have alot in common with such as working within the Church.
I understand Anthony’s sentiment when he hears AMS member who had unrealistic expectations on mate selection. AMS is Anthony’s vision of a forum to bring all Single Catholic men and women in order to create a domestic family the way our universal Church visions it. Unfortunately, a lot of variables come in between. There are success and failures as well.
I recently shared an article in AMS called “Reflections on Dating and Discernment”. I mentioned that some single Catholic’s mindset over mate selection is no more different than secular men and women. Where is the Christian ethos? If we are to built a domestic Church the way Christ visions it to be, why are we operating on sense of entitlement?
I am grateful to chastity speakers like Marybeth Bonacci, Dave Sloan, Matthew Kelly and Christopher West. Their message is something every single Catholic should know and live. If we are to build a domestic Church (family), preparation to be the head and heart of the household should start now.
I will not deny that it is possible there are some women out there who are, say, 35 years old and would find a 64-year-old man appealing. It is my opinion, based on years of experience, that it is highly unlikely. Your time is best spent looking for a lovely woman past childbearing years (which basically means someone 50+) who would love the opportunity to offer a good man in his 60's the love she has to share. You are more likely to find the love you are looking for and that makes a marriage happy. And the parental desires can be lived out through work with the children of your parish, or family, or the community, etc.
I truly feel that men like yourself are past the age of finding someone who will give you natural children. Perhaps using the word "delusional" is a bit harsh. "Unrealistic" might be the better word because my opinion here is based on facts and experience. It is highly unlikely a woman of childbearing age will be interested in a man 20 years older than she is, including a man in his 60's. Therefore, your expectations are "unrealistic".
But finding a tremendous, loving, holy, good, attractive woman in her 50's is NOT unrealistic at all. Be open, and put aside unrealistic desires and you will be amazed at what God could do for you in the area of love and happiness and marriage. It doesn't hurt to keep one foot dipped in the pool of those women in their 30's or 40's, but make it a pool that you just dabble in without any real expectations. If you meet someone who wants to marry you, then wonderful. But I'm sure you will find on Ave Maria Singles that after a couple months of writing to many women in their 30's and 40's that your experience will back up my opinion.
Time in this life is so short. Marriage is hard work. Finding a good spouse is challenging enough. Do yourself a favor and dedicate your time to finding a good woman in her 50's or 60's and give your love to her for the little time remaining. Then share your love as a couple with the children you have access to in your community and families. Children so very much need the good example and care of other adults outside of their own parents. That is how the Church is built up.
Yours in Christ,
Anthony
I will respond to the comments made since my posting in the order they were written.
Susie: One of the main reasons I have been hesitant to join any online group is that I could see the possibility of someone like you being “creeped-out” if I were to show an interest. I would not want to inflict that on anyone. Since I have never been a member of an online service, I don’t know exactly what takes place. I can imagine that, if you didn’t want to hear from anyone over a certain age, you could say so in your profile. Anybody who did not respect your wishes would indeed be a creep. I have also thought of submitting a profile saying that I would not be interested in anyone over a certain age because I would not be interested.
Patricia: Thank you for your kind comments on age differentials and child bearing. You made the comment that I made the choice to “NOT” marry and I will give you a brief explanation. I did not make that “choice.” Some people are faced with overwhelming circumstances in their lives that preclude any choices they would like to make. Mine was a family situation with my mother’s health. I am an only child and I was the only one to take responsibility. I was faced with the choice of being responsible or being irresponsible.
Anthony: Thank you for your reply. And thanks for changing your tone somewhat. When I read the first blog, I was struck by what I thought was an angry tone toward older men who wanted to marry child bearing women and toward younger women who were agreeable to marriage of older men. You attributed your fabricated motives to their being agreeable to a much older man and a much younger woman. I can assure you that there are many people out there who are happy with their choices and are not anything like the “gold-digger-type Catholics” you describe. To mention two well known older-younger types there are Celine Dion and Paul Simon. Sorry I don’t know if they are Catholic though. As for your change of terms from “delusional” to “unrealistic,” your error may be in thinking of me as someone who fits into your statistical profile. I would argue that I do not fit. I will not go into detail about my physical appearance but only to say that I do not look as old as I am. I have an excellent family background and I won big-time in the gene pool. My near and far ancestors have a history of longevity. I think it is not unrealistic for me to think I will live past my ‘80’s. The only reason I was considering joining this group is because I would be exposed to only Catholics whose Faith was like mine and the other reason is that Ave Maria was recommended by a close friend. When I came to the website, the first question I had was “How will they respond to my wish to find a younger woman?” I regard your post (I have since read others) as an answer to my thought.
Of course, I attend Mass regularly and I have opportunities to meet women there. I can tell you that it makes me a little uncomfortable (but not creepy) when a woman in her 20’s pursues me. It only makes me feel a little weird when her mother comes along and encourages her.
I think I have enough information now to know that I will not join your group, at least not right now.
I'm sorry you feel bitter about my position on this topic. It certainly is only my "opinion" based on my experience. I did say in the last post that if you can find someone in her 30's (or 20's?), then God bless you both. I am not God and I am not you. So I certainly can't say anything absolute. But I would very much like you to keep in touch with me as you continue your search for this woman you seek. I am very confident you will not find the "nice looking" woman you seek who is a solid, 100% practicing Catholic woman in her 30's or below to actually marry you. But I will very much enjoy publicly saying I was wrong if you do. And with all sincerity, I will be praying every day that you will be well prepared to be a good Catholic husband, and you will find the suitable partner for marriage that you desire. My job is to help people with their desire to marry. I believe my advice to you is sound, practical, and accurate. Your choosing not to join Ave Maria Singles is a shame, because you are not giving our members the opportunity to help you prove me wrong. To not join because you are not happy with my advice or my tone, I think, is a mistake. The woman you seek is a very rare woman indeed. I believe you are going to need every opportunity that makes sense in order to find this woman, and quickly. If you pass up on the pool of women on Ave Maria Singles, then you are taking out a big opportunity.
Yours in Christ,
Anthony
“Famous people don’t count?” Are they not people in every sense of the word? I am wondering how I could give an example that would resonate without using people who’s names you or your readers would recognize. But I will admit that I don’t know of any who are not famous. Also, I am very aware of the difference between celebrities and normal people. But maybe I don’t draw my lines in the same places you do.
Sorry if you misunderstood and think that I am bitter toward you. I was merely stating my case and I don’t and didn’t feel any bitterness toward you or anyone else. On the contrary, when I read some of the other posts you made on “How important are one’s looks in finding true love?” I thought your insights were exceptionally good.
But I don’t like to misunderstood so let me clarify that the reason I mentioned the girl in her twenties who has shown attraction to me I was trying to convey that I agree that there is a limit to how young is too young. In my experience, around 35 is ok, any younger probably not. And I hope that, since I cannot deal with all of the variables by giving a number for the acceptable age I will not be misunderstood as saying that there are no other considerations but there is a limit to what I can explain here.
As far as your statement that you are confident that I will not find a woman who is a 100% practicing Catholic to marry me, I wonder how you know this other than your experience and statistics. I can tell you that I am realistic, sane and not delusional. I hope you can see that in the way I express myself. I am passionate about many things and I state my opinions but I am not fanatical (not to say that you have said so). I will say that I know that you are wrong about not finding anyone in that age bracket, for me (and I don’t fit into the model you have for people my age) it is a given (but I do not say absolute because I am not speaking in philosophical terms). Sorry if I have disturbed the peace around here with my heartfelt comments.
I will give your remarks about joining Ave Maria Singles some more thought but, I am not in the big hurry that you think is necessary. A few months will not change anything. I am pursuing things with the people who I already know and I am not losing ground. Nobody who knows me thinks I don’t know what I am doing. As I said, I came to Ave Maria on the suggestion of a friend. If things don’t work out and I need to look at other options, Ave Maria will be high on my list of things to do.
Best regards,
Bill
I'm sorry, I just find it absolutely astounding that at 64, you are are seriously looking for a 35 year old woman as a spouse. You are old enough to be her father. I'm speechless!
Patricia
I am a 36-year-old woman and recently dated a couple men in their mid-to-late 40s (46 & 48). Although the age difference was 10-12 years (which puts them in the same age range as my oldest brother), I felt that both of these men were too old for me. Neither looked "old" but their experiences in career and relationships put them in a different point in their lives than I am at. The same would be for me if I were to date someone 10-12 years younger - I am well-established in my career, own a house and am involved in my community - I would not have much in common with them. I can't imagine dating or marrying someone 20-30 years older. In previous generations, a larger age difference was more common (my grandmother was 25 years younger than my grandfather but she also ended up living 55 years after his death at age 75).
What Anthony is suggesting is that while not impossible (certainly nothing is impossible with God), your quest for a 30-something wife will not be easy, whether you search on the AMS site, other websites or out in the bricks and mortar world. Heck, it's not easy for me to find someone either and I don't have the age difference issue!
God bless you.
Lynn
Expectations about marriage and the like aside, what I was struck by in you original comments was the claim, after enumerating your conversion and how you kept the Church Teachings, and even faithfully served God through service to the Church; that after all of that you "feel that I am worthy of finding the mate I have always wanted." I could be horribly wrong, but I don't think it works that way. Labouring in the vineyard of the Lord does not thereby naturally entitle you to anything, as it is what you should be doing regardless. We can never be "worthy" on our own merits no matter how much we do, but must rely on God's grace. My father and mother worked as missionaries for over 30 years, then my father was laid off for political reasons (jealousy by a superior), and scrapped by finding a job to support the family, in the meantime all of my siblings turned their back on Christianity. If there was someone who was "worthy" after 30 years of service, they seem to have fit the bill. But God had other plans. I don't know what they are, and will most likely not see the reasons in this lifetime, but God has a reason.
I do not know your situation, and I could be misreading your position, but the idea that you are "worthy", by your own merits, and are now entitled to what you wish because you have served God faithfully frightens me. It frightens me because making demands on God (and I hope and pray that is not what is occurring), never seems to end well. You converted to know, love, and serve God; if God has decided that you will have children, then so be it! Just be careful that in the 'worthiness' of your cause, if it does not happen, you do not become bitter to God for not having properly rewarded you with exactly what you want. God wants more for us than we can ever imagine - I have the same problem at times - but don't limit God's imagination to your own.
I'm a mother of five children. Four of which are teenagers. I'm
48, in good shape but I can't imagine when I'm 83 having my 17
year old coming in and waking me up at 1:00 in the morning to
let me know he is home for the night. Teenagers are exhausting!
Whether it is looking at colleges or handling an emotional crises
they might be having or helping them pick out a new car. I don't
want to be doing this when I'm in my eighties. Children need
parents that are young enough to keep up with them.
Your not the only one, I have read men's profile who are my
age through say about 58 who say they want their on children.
I just wonder what is god's will for them? I think my children
would benefit from a loving stepfather but I don't know what
God's plan is? So I just pray that he guides me.
God Bless,
Tricia
A couple in their sixties is celebrating their 40th wedding anniversary. A genie appears and promises to fulfill their wishes. The man goes first... he says he would like a wife 30 years younger than himself. The genie waves a wand and the man turns 90!
We laugh, I think, because we rejoice that he got what he deserved.
It is a little hard to keep up with all of the issues you all have expressed in your posts. Some of the ideas seem to be addressing motives. As I read them, I have to try to put myself in your shoes to understand what you are responding to. First, I originally missed the comment about “entitlement” by CLT but when I read Nathan’s comment about “worthiness,” I made the connection that both of you think that my motives for wanting to consider (include rather than exclude) a younger woman who could bear a child or children are flawed. For the sake of argument, both of your comments are reasonable but, I think, don’t have much to do with my situation. Patricia says that the woman would be young enough to be my daughter and that would be true of anyone under say, 45. The fact is that I have never had children and I don’t see women 35 – 45 as children. As far as older women go, I don’t know how else to tell you than what I have already said in my previous post where I mentioned that I have had overbearing family responsibilities and that has prevented me from having what you call a normal life. I could not marry and I missed some things you take for granted. That is only one way of saying it. If you could try to imagine and put yourselves in my shoes, you might understand. Ruth, your joke resonates. Here is a quote from the Bible that mentions Abraham’s reaction when God told him he would have a son by Sarah: “God told Abraham that Sarah would have a son. Abraham laughed at what he was hearing. Yes, Sarah will have a son, God said, and you will name him Isaac, which means laughter.”
Bill
I did not say that 35 to 45 year old women were children. What I said is that because you are well into later middle age, a woman who is 35 to 45 years old is the age a daughter would be for a man of your years. It doesn't really matter what you think about 35 to 45 year old women - what matters is how many women in this age bracket would seriously consider dating and marrying a 64+ year old man.
BTW, Abraham and Sarah were BOTH elderly when God promised them children.
The age difference has never been an issue. In fact, it has been a plus. He has the maturity to hold to the tenets of the Faith in regard to chastity and he appreciates me in ways I never thought men could appreciate women. So, I say, good for you Bill. If you want a wife and children, go for it. If it is part of God's plan for you, it will happen. However, remember, that it might not be part of His plan and you need to be willing to accept that.
God bless you! :-)
BE OPEN to women past their childbearing years.
All of his statements are quite understandable, but what everyone is saying is :
BE OPEN, because God's ways are not our ways... If he wants him to find a 30 yr old to bear him children, praise the Lord. We all knew it was possible for Him.
but BE OPEN, because God's ways are not necessarily this elder gentleman's ways. God may want him to find a 55 yr old woman... and the gentleman may miss GOD'S will blinded by his own human rather than divine wishes...
Blessings to you both!
There was always an attraction as well as a lot of mutual respect. I certainly wasn't looking to have a relationship with an older man but it seems clear now that this is part of God's plan for us. :-)
I should say that I found this website through 'The Road to Cana' program on EWTN and the website for that show (doing homework for the possibility of marriage). This particular blog strand caught my attention immediately (for obvious reasons), so I had to read and comment...:-)
I enjoy your website, and thank you for this wonderful resource. I did wish to comment, since unless God blesses as He did Elizabeth with Mary, age can become a serious consideration. However, sometimes it can be so tempting to give advice and make assumptions without knowing other relevant details about the person who is being spoken about, and end up with generalizations such as “a very common problem with Catholic men today.”
A while back I remember reading about the stories written about in the following links, and was curious what the age differences were. In one, “Reverend” Maurice Dillane was reported to be 73 years old, while the woman who gave birth to their son was reported to be 31 years old. ~ 42 years difference. In the other, when Bishop Eamonn Casey was around 46 years old, and the Bishop of Kerry, his affair with Annie Murphy when she was around 25 years old, after her divorce, was blessed with his son Peter. ~ 21 years difference.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/183/story_18380.htm...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/469920...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/author/story.cfm?a_id=78...
http://iht.com/articles/1992/05/13/bish_1.php
It was reading the following paragraph that brought those stories back to mind: “I hate to say this, but I am praying that he is just giving you "a line" to make it easier on you instead of just coming out and saying "I'm not interested," because the alternative is just not an alternative in my mind (which is that he really believes he will find a much younger woman to marry him and give him children). And I am talking about "Catholic" women here. Perhaps there are "gold digger"-type Catholic women out there who will welcome such a union for the purpose of inheriting a bundle of money once he is dead (10 to 20 years at the most might seem like a good investment to some 32-year-old women), but gold diggers don't tend to want to be "mothers" of the children of men that much older. And this is all assuming he is a rich man, which I am doubting.”
As for “Sad to say, what you are experiencing is a very common problem with Catholic men today. And no Catholic man has come forward to challenge me on this position. The bottom line: many single Catholic men today are making very bad decisions about whom they are looking for, and they are making no decisions at all, when they should be. They seek fantasy and idealism, but have no sense of the practical nature of their call to marriage. Thus, they keep getting older and remain unmarried because the fantasy and idealistic desire continues to fool them into thinking it is just around the corner. And their lack of decision to marry is, in fact, a decision. The decision is "I will not serve anyone", "I would rather be to myself".”
Catholic men and women are making very bad decisions about whom they are looking for. Marriage is sacred, and for some of us Catholic men, we only want to marry once, so what may look like “no decision at all, when they should be.”, may in fact be patience and prudence, waiting on the Lord. Better single for a time more, than married unwisely and then in a very difficult situation, or divorced. What did the apostles say, and Paul write, in this regard? I know one Catholic gentleman who is probably in his 60’s and never married, yet he gives no indication of chasing after fantasy and idealism. Another Catholic gentlemen you and I both know married at a “nontraditional age” and their children apparently adore him.
Yes, age is important. And in regards to fertility, the window of time is narrower for women, at least that is the evidence with Maurice. In general, after a certain age, an older man is more likely to father children with a younger woman, than an older woman to bear a child with a younger man. Too often the “fantasy and idealism” of continuing to dedicate more time to a career than a family can also be ““I will not serve anyone”, “I would rather be to myself.””
Within the last two years a young Christian woman almost 20 years younger than I indicated she wished I would be interested in spending time getting to know her… even after I reminded her several times during a week long mission trip where we both met for the first time that I was quite a bit older than her. The reply was that she was tired of dating “boys”. I still would not “look” to date someone significantly younger than I, yet generalizations are sometimes bias.
Thank you for all you do!
Michael
But last fall I met a gentleman 15 years my senior. He may be nearing 60, but he turns out to be my match and I am happily married.
The majority of younger women prefer someone in their own age bracket, but that is as unrealistic as men preferring to find someone 20 years younger.
Both ends of the age spectrum need to remain open and seek what God has planned for them.
Not all older men are as old as some younger men. My hubby is physically in better shape than most men 20 years younger than he is.
I'm not the prettiest, nor do I have the best figure, but I'm just right for him.
Realistic is knowing God's way is beyond my understanding--mr right could have been younger than me!
I still wonder though if some of the problem with AMS and other sites like it (i.e. the internet dating) is that people have only a picture and words in an email and a profile to go by. So for most men, if the woman doesn't look really good in her picture, I think they simply move onto the next person. However, as Anthony has stated, attraction is more than just a physical element. I would like to think that a man 40+ would be well aware that attraction is more than just physical and therefore would be open to considering any woman who contacts him. Sadly, this does not seem to be the situation as many women on AMS can testify to. Instead the blinders are on and older men don't appear to be open to considering women 45+. The result is many frustrated and lonely women and many men who end up missing marriage because they were just too fussy. No one wants to make a bad marriage but there are also many ways to determine if a relationship has potential -- from having input from friends, family and your parish priest to doing premarriage questionnaires that identify potential problem areas (in Canada these questionnaires are called Focus).
Also, the more people one meets, helps in determining what attributes they are attracted to - personality type, looks, mannerisms and interests etc and what they might not be so tolerant of. Of course, the most important is to have a common faith and set of values.
I guess what you are saying Michael, is that men are wanting to have all their ducks lined up. But people aren't perfect and marriages require alot of hard work - even for those who appear to have found their "perfect match".
God bless
Patricia
I would hope most Catholic men and women are sufficiently and sophisticated to appreciate that a picture and a few words does not convey a deep or necessarily accurate reflection of the depth and potiential of the person they were chosen to represent on an on-line dating site. Yes, attraction is more than just a physical element, and that has been widely known since before Anthony said.... many secular people are privy to such insight/common sense.
Writing "and many men who end up missing marriage because they were just too fussy." may give the appearance of a Barack "faux pas" that Hillary attempted to exploit recently. Instead of "Instead the blinders are on and older men don't appear to be open to considering women 45+. The result is many frustrated and lonely women ", once could just as sincerely write "Instead the giving the vocation of marriage appropriate and timely consideration, some younger women are focusing more on career and independence than on marriage before their mid to late 30's. and 40's. The result is many frustrated and lonely women."
"I guess what you are saying Michael, is that men are wanting to have all their ducks lined up." No, that is not what I said. And only a fool would not realize that "people aren't perfect and marriages require alot of hard work." What I said was: "and for some of us Catholic men, we only want to marry once, so what may look like “no decision at all, when they should be.”, may in fact be patience and prudence, waiting on the Lord. Better single for a time more, than married unwisely and then in a very difficult situation, or divorced." If men or women are "too superficial", which is not widely recognized as a fruit of a mature faith in Jesus Christ, to generally give due consideration to approprate potential husbands or wives, then perhaps time to further mature and nurture their faith would be wiser than entering into a relationship with a less mature faith and a superficial view of others based on their AMS profiles. I for one, assume that most Catholics here have a sincere and mature faith, have a reasonable idea of what God has placed in their hearts in regards to a potential spouse, are open to learning if they need to grow and be more open in some regards, and if they are not "matching" as often or as successfully as they believe they should be, will rely more on prayer, perseverence, and waiting of the Lord, instead of making generalizations about groups of the other gender, or siblings in Christ, or so we profess.
May God continue to bless you,
Michael
You wrote: "I would hope most Catholic men and women are sufficiently and sophisticated to appreciate that a picture and a few words does not convey a deep or necessarily accurate reflection of the depth and potiential of the person they were chosen to represent on an on-line dating site. "
Apparently, this isn't the case, Michael. Women on AMS have told about receiving replies from men to the effect that they felt no "chemistry" when they looked at the woman's picture!
Thank you for placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of women in their 30's and 40's for not getting married! I'm sure that age group of women on this site will be appreciative! A woman is going to focus on her career, if that’s all the men in this society give her! And if you have men who can’t commit to marriage.
What I am saying Michael, is that many men give the appearance on AMS of waiting and waiting for the perfect woman to come along and that decision in and of itself is a decision of "no" for marriage. What is perfect? A woman with a BMI of 23, or a woman who has blonde hair, or a woman who is between the ages of 23 and 33, or a woman who likes running marathons? It appears that some men have a very "rigid" ideal of what their spouse should be and are not really all that open to considering other factors. The above criteria would seem to me to be "superficial" and I can't think how these qualities would be important in the daily ups and downs of marriage.
You wrote: “If men or women are "too superficial", which is not widely recognized as a fruit of a mature faith in Jesus Christ, to generally give due consideration to approprate potential husbands or wives, then perhaps time to further mature and nurture their faith would be wiser than entering into a relationship with a less mature faith and a superficial view of others based on their AMS profiles." This is obvious. If this is the case, however, these men (and women) should change their status to inactive if they are not mature or ready for marriage or even to discern a potential spouse. Someone who is looking for “chemistry” from a profile picture would seem to fall into this category though I doubt they’re aware of it.
You can’t know what appeals to you if you don’t go out and contact others and spend some time getting together and meeting a potential spouse. However, this entails taking a risk. Putting yourself on the line and letting another person get to know you. It also means the man might have to take the lead – which IMO is good because he is leading in the courtship and will likely be a leader in the marriage too!
God bless,
Patricia
However, the number of men who simply ignore someone who contacts them--no note, nothing really bothered me. That lack of common courtesy was shocking.
Also, the majority with whom I spent any time interacting were eliminating people for superficial reasons. It felt like they were all afraid they might actually have to follow through.
A very few (one) turned out to be a valued friend and I keep praying for him to find someone right for him.
I am not placing blame squarely on anyone, merely suggesting both men and women can and do make choices that can lead to them being unhappy with where they are at in their life based on present and past decisions and priorities.
"You wrote: "I would hope most Catholic men and women are sufficiently and sophisticated to appreciate that a picture and a few words does not convey a deep or necessarily accurate reflection of the depth and potiential of the person they were chosen to represent on an on-line dating site. "
Apparently, this isn't the case, Michael. Women on AMS have told about receiving replies from men to the effect that they felt no "chemistry" when they looked at the woman's picture!
Thank you for placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of women in their 30's and 40's for not getting married!"
Not everyone who advertises or claims to be Catholic is more than a social or cradle Catholic, and some are more or less mature or strong in their faith and walk than others... men and women both.
Also, sometimes the men are just being honest if they don't feel a chemistry, and women do the same, there is not a monopoly. Not everyone has the same tastes, and not everyone is attracted to very thin or very overweight persons, or to those who somewhat neglect their appearance. I would probably have a difficult time being attracted to someone who is extremely over-weight if it was the result of gluttony or lack of self-control over a prolonged period of time, or of relative inactivity... for some, being able to share certain activities together might be important, such as jogging, biking, hiking.... Sometimes the reasons are not totally superficial, might be partly valid reasons, and partly selfish or close minded reasons. If they are more selfish or close minded, why "mourn" that such a person is not interested?
Still, I think it would be good to keep in mind a few things:
1) What an individual person wants in his/her spouse is really his/her concern and nobody else's (in regard to Catholics particularly) so long as it is in accordance with the Faith. After all, they are the ones who are having to spend the rest of their life with that person. It simply isn't Christian to try to pressure someone into wanting someone/something that they don't. Even the Lord told the disciples to preach without preaching. (In my humble opinion, there is far too much preaching happening here)
2) It isn't so abnormal for men to be attracted to younger women (and vice versa). Numerous scientific studies find that men are hardwired to respond to women who are fertile and can bear them children whilst women are hardwired to find a mate who will take care of them and their children. If this is the case, it means God created them that way to fulfil his Devine purpose. This makes sense given Catholic teaching on one of the primary functions of marriage (children and families).
Additionally, the Bible itself speaks of older men having children with young wives. As I recall, Joseph (of the coat of many colors) was Jacob's child of his old age that he loved the most of all his children because he WAS the child of his old age. Notably, Joseph's mother wasn't the same as his other brothers (No, I didn't look it up again to make sure but please correct me if I am mistaken). So clearly, there is no prohibition against this from God. This is particularly so given some hypotheses that Joseph (the husband of the Virgin Mary) was a much older man and Mary was his second wife. If it is good enough for the Lord...
Finally, prior to this and the end of the last century, it was not uncommon for older men to marry younger women and have children together. Countless literary works reflect this (who doesn't recall Jo's Professor Bhaer in Little Women or the age difference in Jane Eyre?) and so do many historical unions. Were there more marriages involving closer ages? Undoubtedly! However, no-one would look negatively on a marriage between say, a 18 year old woman and a 45 year old man. It was perfectly acceptable.
My point is: There is no need to judge anyone for what they are looking for in a spouse. If someone is fixed on what s/he "must" have, then it is his/her business alone. If this means that they never find what they are looking for and end up alone, that is their choice. What we should all do is pray that all of us have the strength and the grace to follow God's will for us--even if it doesn't match precisely with what we want.
May God bless you
Perhaps you can explain to the female mind how a man can determine "chemistry" from a picture online, without interaction, without hearing the woman speak, seeing her mannerisms and seeing her in her entirety AS A PERSON. Seeing numbers like 5ft 2in and 140 lbs might seem heavy but that man might be shocked to discover a very attractive woman with a great sense of humour and an easy going personality. Or,perhaps what the man is really saying is that he just doesn't find the woman pretty. But Anthony's point was that beauty comprises many facets and that men generally get too hung up on the physical side. I think what the women on AMS are asking is that a man give some due consideration before just blowing her off with the problematic statement of "I don't feel any chemistry". It just doesn't wash for us women and seems very shallow. In which case, you are right, she's better off NOT knowing him!
God bless,
Patricia
You wrote: "Michael: Perhaps you can explain to the female mind how a man can determine "chemistry" from a picture online, without interaction, without hearing the woman speak, seeing her mannerisms and seeing her in her entirety AS A PERSON."
First, I already wrote: "I am not placing blame squarely on anyone, merely suggesting both men and women can and do make choices that can lead to them being unhappy with where they are at in their life based on present and past decisions and priorities." as well as "Also, sometimes the men are just being honest if they don't feel a chemistry, and women do the same, there is not a monopoly. Not everyone has the same tastes, and not everyone is attracted to very thin or very overweight persons, or to those who somewhat neglect their appearance. I would probably have a difficult time being attracted to someone who is extremely over-weight if it was the result of gluttony or lack of self-control over a prolonged period of time, or of relative inactivity... for some, being able to share certain activities together might be important, such as jogging, biking, hiking.... Sometimes the reasons are not totally superficial, might be partly valid reasons, and partly selfish or close minded reasons. If they are more selfish or close minded, why "mourn" that such a person is not interested?"
What Reni wrote in a previous post was excellent. What I wrote before was that men and women can be superficial, and sometimes men and women are not being as superficial as our own egos would want us to believe. If someone feels "slighted" or neglected that others do not see deeper past a picture and a few brief statements, and don't experience "hearing the woman speak, seeing her mannerisms and seeing her in her entirety AS A PERSON.", then perhaps spending less time on-line, and more time meeting people face-to-face is reasonable.
I was thinking about the picture thing while visiting some churches, and was wondering why most, if not all Catholic statues and paintings depicting Jesus, Mary, and Joseph depict them they way they do? Why are they not more often depicted more "average looking" or "less than average looking" so we would focus more on the spiritual reality instead of superficial outward "skin deep" appearances? In the Cistine Chapel, how are appearances used to convey a message or thought?
We've all been, and will be, superficial at times to one degree or another, whether we are men or women. Some women have found me not handsome enough, not funny enough, don't like my picture or what I wrote in my profile.... so making decisions without meeting someone is not all one-sided, men do not have the monopoly. And who has enough time and resources to not narrow down their interest based on the information that is available? If my picture does not make a good enough impression, I am free to make the effort to have a more appealing picture, or leave it as is and wait to meet the person who appreciates me for who I am, both inside and out.
God bless,
Michael
This comes under the catergory of 'game playing' and 'leading the woman on' in my book.
That is just nasty. I hope you told this man so!
@ Michael 4/25/08 9:40 am:
Sorry Michael, but I guess we agree to disagree. I simply think to write a person off because you don't feel "chemistry" based on a photo is shallow, superficial and stupid. I think at the very least you need to give that person a chance via email and/or chat. Not everyone has the time to meet every single person they correspond with on AMS. I corresponded with a man around my age on AMS who was not the best looking chap but was really a delight to write to and was very sweet in his compliments. I'm glad that I at least got the chance to know him a little, instead of just writing him off based on his looks.
And you are right, we are better off seeing this aspect of the person right off the bat, because IMO, this person would NOT make a good spouse. Too bad so many use this method of discerning a potential spouse. With such unrealistic expectations,maybe that's why the success rate on this site is so low.
I was very saddened to see that the judgment seems to still be going strong in this blogs. I was struck by the rather demeaning terms and tones used in recent posts ("nasty" and "delusional" being the two that stand out most in my mind). The blog has already established that some women are not interested in older men whereas some women are. While the blog has not established this (I believe mainly because of the topic), it is true that some men prefer younger women while others want someone more their own age. Despite the limited experience of some female posters on this blog, scientific evidence shows this to be the case. There is nothing wrong with having these preferences. As established previously, there is no prohibition against it and there are Scriptural precedents.
Additionally, there seems to be some confusion from some posters as to what they want. One poster complains that a man corresponded with her (i.e. he was trying to be open to possibilites) but then decided not to continue because she was not what he was really looking for (thereby "wasting" her time). Yet another post complains that men tell them up front that they're not interested (i.e. won't even be open to the possibility or give it a try). This seems a case of prima facie inconsistency. In my humble opinion, posters should decide what they want before complaining publically that they aren't getting it. I would submit that this, rather than male superficiality, is one reason why some people are not getting what they hoped for out of the website. Perhaps some introspection (e.g. putting your own house in order first) would be advisable.
Another point, nobody seems to be attacking any of the women for their voiced preferences (which, according to their own words, seem superficial for some). Yet, the men who are interested in younger women are being openly derided as, amongst other things, superficial. Not only is this an ad hominem attack but as, established by the posters' own words, it is a double standard. Simply, everyone has their own preferences. Some men like long hair on a woman. Some women insist that the man be taller than her. It is perfectly within an individual's rights to make choices based on their preferences. I doubt that many of the female posters see that not being open to a man because he is older is the same as not being open to a woman because she is. Yet, the former is perfectly acceptable here but the latter is not. Why?
I also note that the original poster, Bill, seems to not have returned. Given the reception he was given, I can certainly understand why.
One final note, the renowned Catholic philosopher, Dietrich von Hildebrand, would evidently fall into the "nasty", ""delusional" category. He was 70 when he married his second wife, Alice (who is also a renowned philosopher). She was 35 at the time. If she was asked (I believe she is still alive), I have no doubt that she would praise God for having put Dietrich into her life and would never classify him as "creepy". It is indeed a sad day when such things can be said (admittedly by implication) about such devoute, honorable people simply because they have followed their hearts (and I believe, God's plan for them).
I’m going to respond to both your posts here.
First you stated that “What an individual person wants in his/her spouse is really his/her concern and nobody else's (in regard to Catholics particularly) so long as it is in accordance with the Faith.” This is true but I remind you that Bill did bring forward his situation himself and therefore made it public and to open to discussion.
“If someone is fixed on what s/he "must" have, then it is his/her business alone. If this means that they never find what they are looking for and end up alone, that is their choice.” You are correct, ultimately it is Bill’s decision and not ours. However, some posters and the blog author were trying to point out to Bill that he may be focusing on women he has very little chance of attracting and may in the long run totally miss out on a more suitable spouse. I see nothing wrong in this.
As for Bill leaving the site – I’m sure that by the age of 60, Bill is now an adult and can deal with the slings and arrows of misfortune that life bring.
Secondly, we do not live in Biblical times anymore, nor is society anything like what it was 50 years ago. Women married older men sometimes because they had no other option open to them in society. A spinster of 35 years of age would have been much more likely to marry a 60 year old man in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s simply because that was the only option open to her. This would have been especially true if she had little education and no way of supporting herself once her parents were deceased. Today, a woman of 35 is less likely to consider an offer of marriage from a 60 year old man because socially it’s no longer unacceptable for a 35 year old woman to be unmarried and financially she is usually self-sufficient. Generally, marriages with this age difference are the exception rather than the rule.
As for the situation of Dietrich Von Hildebrand – he was certainly a very special man. I think many men would have a hard time measuring up to him. Von Hildebrand’s first wife was his age and his second wife was his colleague whom he knew very well. There would have been no “creepy” factor involved, I would think. She would have been quite use to him by the time they were romantically involved. I think however, a 60 + man contacting a 35 year old woman on an internet dating site would probably rank as “creepy” to many young women today.
God Bless,
Patricia
Patricia,
You write to me: "I simply think to write a person off because you don't feel "chemistry" based on a photo is shallow, superficial and stupid." Please note that sometimes the reasons are superficial and sometimes they are not superficial. If someone does not sense attraction or chemistry based on a photo, should they pretend they do sense attraction or chemistry, in essence being dishonest and potentially leading the other person on? One woman told me she does not usually meet/date men who are shorter than she is. That is her preference, and I respect that, and I do not think it is stupid. I am glad she knows what she does and does not prefer. Two of my married friends are very active in sports together, it seems to be important for them to do activities like running and biking together. My guess is that when they were younger and looking for someone to be interested in dating, they would probably give less consideration to someone who's picture implied/gave a sense that they were not very active or significantly over weight. I would not call them stupid or superficial, I would say they know what they enjoy in life, and were looking for someone with similar interests.
I've had a young lady 18 years younger than I pursue me, and she is wonderful, kind, does Christian medical mission work, is a professional, beautiful, smart, speaks three languages, paints remarkably well.... yet right now I am not romantically attracted to her because of our age difference. Go ahead and call that "shallow, superficial, and stupid". There are also pictures here that I have thought were attractive, and did not write because I was not attracted to the profile. Is that "shallow, superficial, and stupid"? When I am interested in two profiles and write first to the woman whose picture is more attractive to me, is that "shallow, superficial, and stupid"? Each person has different tastes and interests, and I would prefer not to classify them as "shallow, superficial, and stupid" when they chose to spend time getting to know those who most interest them. As they go along, they will learn from their choices as they go along.
Do you or other women here search by photos and correspond with those whose pictures are least attractive to you, so as not to be "shallow, superficial, and stupid"?
God bless,
Michael
I am not speaking here about men who are not attracted to a woman's profile. I am talking about men who categorically reject a woman based entirely on her profile picture. To me that is being superficial. A person is much more than just a picture. It can be difficult to post a really good picture. Also, some people are not very photogenic. A photo is the capturing of mere seconds of a person's life.
No I do not search by least attractive pictures, just as I do not search by most attractive pictures.I read the profile and based on the profile that is what makes me decide whether or not to contact a person. I consider their faith, interests, family situation and personality, for example. I've corresponded with people I don't necessarily consider very physically attractive but who were promising in other ways. Ultimately I discontinued the correspondence not because of any physical criteria but because they really were not in a situation to be developing a relationship leading to marriage. For me, it's what's in a man's heart that is most important.
God love you Michael.
You wrote: "I've corresponded with people I don't necessarily consider very physically attractive but who were promising in other ways."
By saying not necessarily "very" physically attractive, are you saying that there has to be some level of physical attraction, a minimum, before you will consdier communicating?
Who here prefers to communicate with "those whose pictures are least attractive to you, so as not to be "shallow, superficial, and stupid"? I admit that usually there needs to be some level of physical attraction. If that is "shallow, superficial, and stupid" in the eyes of others, and of God, then so be it. I also admit to seeing some photos that I consider very attractive and have no desire to be interested in dating based on the profile. And someone might view that as judgemental. Perhaps instead of labeling individuals, or groups of men, as "shallow, superficial, and stupid", we try to respect their free will and accept them as they are with all their imperfections, just as God does for us? There appears to be quite a few topics on this blog focusing on the problem with some men on AMS, reminds me of the verse ""Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" as well as verse 26 in Proverbs 31:10-31:
"10An excellent wife, who can find?
For her worth is far above jewels.
11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
And he will have no lack of gain.
12She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
13She looks for wool and flax
And works with her hands in delight.
14She is like merchant ships;
She brings her food from afar.
15She rises also while it is still night
And gives food to her household
And portions to her maidens.
16She considers a field and buys it;
From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17She girds herself with strength
And makes her arms strong.
18She senses that her gain is good;
Her lamp does not go out at night.
19She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hands grasp the spindle.
20She extends her hand to the poor,
And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21She is not afraid of the snow for her household,
For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22She makes coverings for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25Strength and dignity are her clothing,
And she smiles at the future.
26She opens her mouth in wisdom,
And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27She looks well to the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28Her children rise up and bless her;
Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29"Many daughters have done nobly,
But you excel them all."
30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31Give her the product of her hands,
And let her works praise her in the gates."
God bless,
Michael
I thank you both for the opportunity to continue the conversation. I would hate to see this discussion degrade into a “he said/she said” conflict, so I have taken some pains to stay neutral (which I accept that some might find hard to believe).
Patricia, I understand what you are saying about it no longer being Biblical or even 19th to 20th century times. However, my point in citing those examples was not to suggest that society return to those times. Rather, in the case of the former, it was simply meant to show there is no Scriptural prohibition, full stop. Likewise, my point in citing the historical examples was to bolster the scientific evidence that it is perfectly normal for older men to be attracted to and interested in younger women. It is only in recent years that this has been considered by some to be an aberration (e.g. creepy, delusional). The only additional meaning intended was that the literary tendency to romanticize such relationships shows that, somewhere, the idea of love between an older man and a younger woman is exciting (and since the authors cited were women, this is obviously was not ONLY for men). In essence, it was a subject of dreams and fantasy for both sexes (but predominantly women in the examples cited).
Your point about greater choice for women is valid. At the same time, women can now choose not to marry anyone at all—be they young or old. As you rightly note, this was not the case previously. However, given that similar age marriages were more common, there were probably many more unwanted marriages to young men than older men in years past.
I agree that it may be overly optimistic for an older gentleman to find a young wife via a dating service (but the same can be said of other groups as well—such as the less than photogenic). Simply, that venue can be nothing but superficial—akin to a supermarket where you scan labels to see if the candidate item “sounds good” before any direct contact is made. Even then, the contact is sanitized and rather impersonal. There is little opportunity to get beyond the superficial to see the other’s soul.
Given this, it is a higher hurdle for the older male suitor to win over the younger female in the dating service venue. Not only are there a multitude of other potential suitors to compete with but there are also all of the “dirty old man” images in the media to contend with (e.g. the recent tragic and horrific cases from Austria). A young woman, given this climate, might indeed be a little troubled by the advances of an older man whom she does not know except from his photo and profile. I firmly believe that the older man wanting to be a true husband (in the von Hildebrand sense) to a younger woman must show her his soul in order to win her heart. This is something that I fear would be nearly impossible to do, especially in our highly superficial society, in any way other than in person. It would seem that the case of the poster, Polly, bears this out…
Since you are a woman, I wonder if you would please be willing to answer my earlier question (meant generally) about the double standard? It is the one thing that I would really like to have explained to me because I simply do not grasp how it is acceptable one way but not the other…
Beyond that, I have to say that I am somewhat troubled by the seemingly callous disregard for Bill’s feelings that your last statement about him implies. Wounds are wounds, regardless of the person’s age. Don’t we all need and deserve charity, regardless of our age? I know I do…
Michael, I thank you for the fine compliment. Given your description of the woman, I marvel that you do not find her attractive simply because of the age difference. Not to pry, but is it an issue of maturity? I urge you to give her a chance because she sounds like she has a beautiful soul (and a powerful mind)…
May God bless you both,
Reni
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
Hamlet
Hi everyone and especially Patricia, I have not read this blog since I last posted. It looks like this is one of the most active topics on the site. I think some of the most recent comments by Polly, Reni and Michael are particularly good but I will respond to Patricia’s comments on superficiality. I think it is probably true that lots of guys look for visual “chemistry” and expect to be able to discern it in photos. But, I would argue that, they are not so shallow that they do not take anything else into consideration. If a woman were only “passable” in terms of looks, she would almost always be able to get a man’s attention by demonstrating her intellect. In my opinion, if a guy is not attracted by a woman’s intellect, then he is deficient and likely not worth much. This is basic to human nature. I have known and known of women who would not be called pretty but could make a man fall in love with them if they only had a chance to say a few words. So, to all of those who have problems like this, don’t despair. Try to drop a line from Shakespeare now and then or say something witty. That will get his attention if the picture doesn’t do the trick.
It is true that I decided to leave the blog after my last post but, when I came by today, I saw the comments of those who said encouraging things about my posts. Thanks.
Bill
"<i>If a woman were only “passable” in terms of looks, she would almost always be able to get a man’s attention by demonstrating her intellect. In my opinion, if a guy is not attracted by a woman’s intellect, then he is deficient and likely not worth much. This is basic to human nature. I have known and known of women who would not be called pretty but could make a man fall in love with them if they only had a chance to say a few words.</i>
I only wish the above were true. Having 2 post-graduate degrees, my experience,and that of some of the ladies on AMS, is that most men are really NOT interested in intellect. Their focus seems to be elsewhere.
To say someone is "passable" - that's a pretty awful term to use. I think I'll just leave this one ALONE.
God Bless,
Patricia
"There appears to be quite a few topics on this blog focusing on the problem with some men on AMS, "
Maybe that is because the problem on this site and others appears to lie with the men. I believe I read in a catholic author's book on courtship that he estimated that is a dearth of marriageable men in NORTH AMERICA. Maybe that sounds pessimistic but I think it's probably not too far off the mark. What did he mean by marriageable? He meant men who were already capable of COURTING a woman, being the spiritual head of the household and the leader in the family. Men who are capable of being in the world but not of it. Men who are capable of giving totally of themselves.
BTW, the looks of the man has very very little to do with whom I correspond. Based on my personal experience (which has been confirmed even on AMS), I know first hand that looks can hide a lack of substance and a multitude of character defects. As I stated earlier, it's what's in the man's heart that ultimately matters and you can't find that out from a picture. You have to find out if he talks the talk, and walks the walk.
God bless,
Patricia
"<i>Beyond that, I have to say that I am somewhat troubled by the seemingly callous disregard for Bill’s feelings that your last statement about him implies. Wounds are wounds, regardless of the person’s age. Don’t we all need and deserve charity, regardless of our age? I know I do…</i>"
I'm sorry you are troubled because I am not. Bill did not seem to take offense to my comments which where made in a polite manner. As I stated, he was the one who made his situation open to the public. I don't think Bill has been "wounded" here. He genuinely sought out input from this site and he got input from the people on this blog and from the administrator of AMS. I think it’s best to be straightforward.
"<i>Likewise, my point in citing the historical examples was to bolster the scientific evidence that it is perfectly normal for older men to be attracted to and interested in younger women. It is only in recent years that this has been considered by some to be an aberration (e.g. creepy, delusional).</i>" I'm wondering though, how many of those "spinsters" of yesteryear would have preferred to marry a man closer in age. Just because they married the man does not mean that they were not feeling some “discomfort” over the age difference. As I said, when faced with the lack of choices many years ago, the prospect of marriage to an older man might have seemed very good to a woman faced with the workhouse or worse.
“Since you are a woman, I wonder if you would please be willing to answer my earlier question (meant generally) about the double standard? It is the one thing that I would really like to have explained to me because I simply do not grasp how it is acceptable one way but not the other…”
I'm not sure which question you want me to answer since I couldn't locate anything in your previous posts. Perhaps you can be specific about which double standard you want me to address?
Thanks Reni,
God bless,
Patricia
Anyone keeping up with Anthony's blog, couldn't help but follow this one. What started out as a discussion about age difference took a turn and talked about looks too. As someone who found success on AMS, I have experienced a little bit of both these topics fairly recently. At age 41, when I joined this site, I was compelled to look for a spouse who fit a range in age of 25 to 35 years old. Of course this was partially motivated by a desire for children but, honestly, I may have just been in my mid life crisis where the thought of a younger woman was so exciting to me. Very quickly though, I felt I should look for a woman closer to my age. On my first search, I found the woman who is now my wife. As I am from western Canada and she was in the Philippines, I did encounter some negative responses from friends and family. I could not be discouraged though as I felt so sure about where this relationship would lead to. I'm not trying to bring in yet another subject as much as trying to point out how one's conviction about their situation can turn the tide against the odds. Although I totally agree with Anthony's advice to Bill, I must admit that Bill has an air of certainty about him which leads me to believe that he might just be able to be the exception to the rule. Since my wife in filipino, she has had a lot to share on the reasons why many of her sisters would feel good about entering into a marriage with a man much older than themselves. For her, she was not inclined to do the same. We are very close in age and at 41 years old, she gave birth to our daughter. Now at 42, she is due again. Our blessings with children also are not the norm so while I do respect Bill's confidence, I would also encourage him to look outside his "ideal" frame and be open to older women as they too can possibly give to him the family he wants. It is good to follow the best formed advice you can have, but there is still room for miracles of God to happen.
When it comes to looks and profiles, I will also be honest. I am 5'9" and 145 lbs. I have been in a few relationships in my life and have some kind of an idea what I am attracted to as well as what kind of women might find me attractive. This of course is just an "idea", but it is what I have to work with. It is fair to say that I wouldn't approach a woman who is 6' tall. This could be simply because I would assume that I wouldn't be tall enough for her. The same could be said for a woman who was considerably heavier than me. In my search, I was more interested in women who were shorter and lighter than myself. This may seem shallow to some of you. One must remember though that this is a website and not a venue where we could find ourselves suddenly spending time with that special someone who didn't fit our physical expectations but surpassed our emotional ones in such a way that we were interested in persuing a special friendship. It is then that our physical vision of this person changes so we find the beauty and appreciate it all the more. For this reason, I really appreciate Bill's last entry about how a woman's charm can be so powerful. I would think as well that most people realize that a physically beautifull man or woman can become unattractive when you get to know them.
Once again, when we remember that AMS is a website forum for us to meet people, we should take a look at how the profiles are set up. The first thing you see is a picture. The next thing you see, after a portion of their introduction, is their physical description including age, height and weight. I would have to believe that most of us would read on even if some of this information didn't meet our expectations. If our physical expectations are met, we might still be discouraged by something in the profile. Like wise, if they weren't, something in their profile might help us overlook it. I think there is a difference between physically "meeting" someone for the first time and "looking" for someone on a website.
If you are blessed with a spouse, it won't take long for you to realize, that in the end the looks will pale in comparison to the spirit and personality of the one you love. I do appreciate my wife's physical appearance but what she brings to my life and our marriage has little, if anything to do with that.
In Peace,
David